Talk:Torah

Sock edits

Robert Wagner has been blocked as a notorius sock of Dalai lama ding dong. Unfortunately, he made a huge amount of controversial edits that were often reverted, some were not. I'd suggest going through them and seeing if anything is there that should not be, and reverting if required. --

Is this sentence accurate?

The sources cited for this sentence are all from 1998 to 2002. Is it still accurate?

“The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian captivity (c. 6th century BCE), based on earlier written sources and oral traditions, and that it was completed with final revisions during the post-Exilic period (c. 5th century BCE).”

What do scholarly sources since 2002 say? Do all the part of the sentence still hold majority opinion? IncandescentBliss (talk) 09:01, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I would like to update the final part of the sentence—-“it was completed with final revisions during the post-Exilic period (c. 5th century BCE)”

This seems to be regarded as the case anymore. Regarding the Joseph story, see Römer:

“The date of the original narrative can be the late Persian period, and while there are several passages that fit better into a Greek, Ptolemaic context, most of these passages belong to later revisions."

T. Römer, “How “Persian” or “Hellenistic” is the Joseph Narrative?”, in T. Römer, K. Schmid et A. Bühler (ed.), The Joseph Story Between Egypt and Israel (Archaeology and Bible 5), Tübinngen: Mohr Siebeck, 2021, pp. 35-53

Genesis 14 is regularly dated to the Hellenistic period:

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/8/632 IncandescentBliss (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

To not be regarded* IncandescentBliss (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The Hellenistic period didn't start at 333 BCE, it was a year later.

Alexander's army entered Palestine/Israel after the siege of Tyre, in 332 BCE, the date of 333 BCE for the start of the Hellenistic period is inaccurate. 79.116.76.190 (talk) 09:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Can we improve on this wording and sources?

“Though hotly debated, the general trend in biblical scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, largely complete by the Persian period”

Römer (2008) in Composition section seems especially pertinent as a source for the lead. I think the first two references currently in the lead are too old. Even this Römer one is a bit old. Schniedewind (2022) seems solid though.

Römer (2008) clarifies that its the *proto*-Torah that’s released in the Persian period, not the final form (that would be in the Hasmonean period presumably). I’m open to including something about ideological unity of the proto-Pentatuch if it’s stated in recent scholarship. As far as my current understanding goes, I don’t think there’s an academic consensus about that and I don’t think it should be in the lead. IncandescentBliss (talk) 23:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Torah and Pentateuch

As I've indicated via my edit summaries, the idea that "Pentateuch" is a Christian name is without foundation. It's an entirely neutral name. Torah and Pentateuch are not even necessarily the same thing, see e.g. Knoppers, Gary N. and Levinson, Bernard M.. The Pentateuch as Torah: New Models for Understanding Its Promulgation and Acceptance, University Park, USA: Penn State University Press, 2007. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1515/9781575065854 . The blurb of this scholarly book: Since antiquity, the five books of Moses have served as a sacred constitution, foundational for both Jews and Samaritans. However long the process of accepting the Pentateuch as authoritative tōrâ (“instruction”) took, this was by all accounts a monumental achievement in the history of these peoples and indeed an important moment in the history of the ancient world. In the long development of Western societies, the Pentateuch has served as a major influence on the development of law, political philosophy, and social thought. The question is: how, where, and why did this process of acceptance occur, when did it occur, and how long did it take? On the other hand, both Ngram and Google scholar seem to confirm that there are more hits for "Torah". I suspect that we would need to ask someone actually versed in the scholarly literature to give a definitive statement on which is more common and in what sense.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Another source, Burge, Stephen R., Elliott, Mark, Gertz, Jan Christian, Klumpenhouwer, Samuel and Sweeney, Marvin A.. "Pentateuch". Encyclopedia of the Bible and Its Reception Online, edited by Constance M. Furey, Peter Gemeinhardt, Joel Marcus LeMon, Thomas Chr. Römer, Jens Schröter, Barry Dov Walfish and Eric Ziolkowski. Berlin, Boston: De Gruyter, 2024. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1515/ebr.pentateuch. Accessed 2025-01-21.

“Pentateuch” is the typical scholarly term for the first five books of the HB/OT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The term, first used in Alexandria in the 2nd century CE, was adopted by the Western church in a Latinized form as pentateuchus (liber). The complete expression in Greek is ἡ πεντάτευχος βίβλος, “the five-part book” (τεῦχος, meaning “jar,” is a metonym for a papyrus scroll; in antiquity, scrolls were often stored in jars). The Jewish tradition refers to the books as tôrā (Heb.), transliterated as “Torah,” meaning “teaching” or “instruction.” [...] The name “the five books of Moses” was used primarily by the churches of the Reformation, but it also found its way into usage in other denominations.

So "Five Books of Moses" is specifically Christian, originally Protestant, but Pentateuch is neutral and scholarly, and Torah is specifically Jewish.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Further down in the same source Although some might view “Pentateuch” as a term employed for the Torah in Christianity in keeping with Enlightenment efforts to “protestantize” American – or even German – Judaism (cf. “Old Testament III. Judaism”; Blau: 51–53), the Greek meaning of the word indicates that it is particularly suitable to translate the Hebrew expression Ḥamishah ḥumshei Torah (the five fifths of the Torah), which is commonly employed in Judaism as a title for a Torah or Pentateuch commentary (e.g., Hertz). [...] The term “Pentateuch” was employed by leading figures in modern Western Orthodoxy, apparently because it corresponded well to the traditional title for a Torah commentary and because it signaled a connection to modernity on the part of modern Orthodox Judaism.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)