Talk:Rumi

Request to Reinstate Rumi's Persian Ethnocultural Identity

I want to bring attention to the fact that Rumi is widely recognized as a Persian poet and mystic in numerous academic sources. Removing his Persian identity from this page seems highly questionable and contradicts established scholarly consensus. Given the importance of this aspect of Rumi’s heritage, any removal of such references raises concerns about bias or misinformation. I request that the users who are preventing the accurate representation of Rumi’s Persian heritage be thoroughly investigated. Let's maintain the integrity of the content and be fair to the historical and cultural significance of such figures.

Semi-protected edit request on 9 November 2024

http://www.spanglefish.com/maulana/

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi, also known simply as Rumi, is a 13th-century poet and mystic who is often claimed by both Afghanistan and Iran.

Rumi was born in 1207 in the city of Balkh, which was part of the historical Khorasan region. Today, Balkh is within the borders of modern Afghanistan. Because of this, Afghans see Rumi as part of their cultural and historical heritage. Rumi’s birthplace in Afghanistan and the cultural influences from his early years in Balkh are fundamental reasons that Afghans consider him Afghan.

Rumi’s cultural identity also reflects the Persian language, as he wrote in Persian, a language historically shared by many regions, including present-day Afghanistan and Iran. However, his poetry and teachings draw from the traditions, culture, and spirituality of the entire Khorasan region, which included Afghanistan at that time. This shared heritage has led people from various countries to claim Rumi as their own, but from a geographical and historical standpoint, many see his birthplace in Balkh as a key reason to view him as Afghan.

Rumi's Persian Ethnocultural Identity and nationality

Rumi's poems are mostly written in Persian (Farsi), and he was born into a Persian family. He was born in Balkh, so why is he introduced as a "poet and Hanafi faqih" rather than a "Persian poet and..."? MaryamSafariIran (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that. Other Persian poets have that in the lead, so I don't see why not. There may be previous discussions about this but I haven't looked that deep. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request for clarification of Rumi’s Ethnic Identity

Labeling Rumi as simply "Persian" is a misrepresentation of historical reality. While he belonged to the Persian-speaking world, Rumi was not ethnically Persian but a Tajik, a people who have historically inhabited Balkh and northern Afghanistan. There are no distinct Persian ethnic groups in Afghanistan, and conflating Persian as a cultural sphere with Persian as an ethnicity distorts the truth. This issue goes beyond Rumi. Many prominent figures from Afghanistan and Central Asia, such as Avicenna, are frequently categorized as Persian, despite their clear Tajik heritage. While "Persian" can describe a linguistic or cultural identity, it does not override ethnic and regional origins. Tajiks, both in Afghanistan and Tajikistan, are Persian-speaking but are a distinct Iranic people, separate from ethnic Persians. There is no need to contradict established scholarly consensus that places Rumi within the Persianate world. However, historical accuracy demands that this article include a section addressing the national and ethnic claims over his identity. Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan all recognize him as part of their heritage, but the truth must be presented as it is, Rumi was a Tajik from Balkh, not an ethnic Persian. His identity should be acknowledged with accuracy, not generalized under a broad label that erases his roots.

Some argue that Rumi is widely recognized as a Persian poet and mystic in academic sources and that removing this label contradicts established scholarship. However, this perspective overlooks the distinction between cultural association and ethnic identity. While Rumi was undeniably part of the Persian literary and cultural world, this does not equate to him being ethnically Persian. Calling him solely Persian without clarifying his Tajik identity is misleading and excludes essential historical context.

Furthermore, concerns about "removing" Rumi's Persian identity are misplaced, the goal is not to erase his connection to Persian culture but to ensure his Tajik origins are equally acknowledged. Presenting only one side of the discussion distorts historical accuracy and fuels nationalistic narratives that overlook the ethnic and regional realities of Rumi’s time. Including a dedicated section on the competing claims over his identity is not only fair but necessary to uphold scholarly integrity. Jawanshir Razi (talk) 13:23, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Identities are based on the language the people primarily spoke or wrote, not an ethnicities. Ethnic identities are not reliable. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:41, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Identity is more than just language, it is also shaped by birthplace, ethnicity, and historical context. Writing in Persian does not make Rumi ethnically Persian, just as speaking Turkish wouldn’t make me Turkish. He was of Iranic ancestry, but not Persian. "Persian" refers specifically to the Persian ethnic group in Iran, just as there are Lurs, Kurds, and Mazanderanis in Iran too. Rumi, however, was born in Balkh, a region historically tied to Tajiks and the broader Persianate world, modern-day Afghanistan.

Reducing identity to language alone is simplistic and misleading. Rumi belonged to Persian literary culture, but he was from Balkh, then under the Ghurid or Khwarazmian rule. The Khwarazmian Empire was a Turkic-ruled state with strong Persian influence, and for all we know, Rumi himself could have been Turkic all along. Historical accuracy matters, labels should reflect reality, not modern nationalist narratives. 85.164.68.83 (talk) 17:42, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

We follow what WP:RS says, not the opinion/deduction of Wiki users. This has already been discussed, please look up above. Also, per WP:RS, Tajik was just a synonym for Persian back then (Tajik (word)). HistoryofIran (talk) 18:45, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

WP:RS does not prevent citing sources that distinguish Tajiks from Persians, and reliable historical research shows they developed as separate identities. The claim that "Tajik was just a synonym for Persian" is an oversimplification. While the term was sometimes used interchangeably, it originally meant "non-Turk" and later referred specifically to Persian-speaking Muslims in Central Asia, distinct from Persians in Iran [1]

The argument that this has "already been discussed" does not invalidate the need for historical accuracy. If sources exist that support this distinction, then they should be cited and represented fairly. Dismissing them outright only leads to misrepresentation. 85.164.68.83 (talk) 21:41, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Additionally, history is not static, scholarship evolves. Past discussions don’t make a topic closed if new sources or perspectives emerge. The claim that Tajiks were simply "Persians" ignores historical realities. Political and cultural separations, especially under Turkic and Mongol rule, shaped Tajiks into a distinct group. If we follow WP:RS, we must consider all reliable sources, not just those that fit a narrative.

Rumi’s case proves why labels matter. "Tajik" originally meant "non-Turk" and distinguished Persian-speaking Muslims from Turkic nomads [2]. Some sources link it to "Tazi," an early Persian word for Arabs [3], later used for Persian-speaking people in Central Asia. Unlike Persians in Iran, Tajiks lived under Turkic and Mongol rule, shaping their identity. Ignoring this distorts history. 85.164.68.83 (talk) 21:50, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

"Additionally, history is not static, scholarship evolves"

And thats why we evolved past ethnic boundaries as they do not hold up to reality. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:00, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Exactly. History isn’t static, and rigid ethnic boundaries don’t define reality. Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi was from Balkh, which is now part of modern Afghanistan. By any geographic or national definition, he belongs to this land and is a source of pride for its people, just like the rest of the Tajiks of Afghanistan.

Dari Persian has a rich and colorful tradition of proverbs that reflect Afghan culture and the way people connect with one another. Rumi himself wrote in Dari (Afghan Farsi), not Iranian Farsi, showing just how deeply his language and legacy are tied to Afghanistan Dari, [4] [5][6]https://blogs.transparent.com/dari/2012/03/09/dari-the-language-of-rumi/ 85.164.68.83 (talk) 22:28, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

WP:RS contradicts you. We follow WP:RS, not you, your WP:SYNTH or random blogs. His alleged status in Afghanistan and your proudness of him does not change who he was. I think you should read up above "A consensus has been reached on this talk page that Rumi has a Persian heritage. The consensus is based entirely on reliable sources that establish and within a Persian cultural-historical context. Before reopening a debate on Rumi's ethnicity, please read WP:V, WP:Weight, and WP:RS, as well as Talk:Rumi/Rumi's heritage. See also modern, authoritative biographies of Rumi, such as that of Professor Franklin Lewis, and note the relative ubiquity of such descriptions as "Persian poet Rumi" and "Persian mystic Rumi" in Google Books and Google Scholar sources." Done here, I think it's best to ignore this IP. I'm pretty sure they're a sock, I'll file an SPI later. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

It’s abundantly clear that there is a deliberate effort to push a narrow, one-dimensional narrative while disregarding historical realities that do not conform to a particular nationalist agenda. This is not intellectual rigor, it is selective omission, a subtle yet insidious form of historical distortion. Wikipedia is meant to be a repository of balanced, verifiable knowledge, not a battleground for cultural revisionism.

Rumi’s identity is multifaceted, he was of iranic ancestry, born in what is now Afghanistan, wrote in Persian, and spent much of his life in Anatolia. To acknowledge one aspect while suppressing the others is not an act of scholarship but of ideological convenience. No amount of rhetorical maneuvering can change the fact that his origins are just as crucial to his identity as his language and later influences.

If you truly uphold the principles of WP:RS and WP:NPOV, then intellectual honesty demands that you represent the full picture, not just the fragments that align with a specific bias. Anything less is a deliberate misrepresentation of history, a refusal to engage with complexity, and a disservice to truth. 85.164.68.83 (talk) 23:02, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2025

Rumis full name is Jalaluddin Muhammad Rumi Balkhi . The “ Balkhi” stands for his hometown Balkh which is in modern day Afghanistan. However his poetry was written in Persian which was was the main language shared in present day Iran and Tajikistan. 85.227.190.220 (talk) 15:50, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sophisticatedevening ^(talk) 20:22, 27 February 2025 (UTC)